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Public Programme, Caxton Hall, London, 20 March 1978.
Gregoire de Kalbernatten introduces Her Holiness Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi:
…and we are very much blessed, because Mataji herself has accepted to grace this function. So with your
permission I would like to welcome her with a mantra, a mantra being a kind of auspicious ritual prayer that they
say in India.
Aum Sakshat Shri Parameshwari Parashakti Sakshat Shri Adi Shakti Sakshat Shri Bhagavati Sakshat
Shri Mataji Shri Nirmala Devi Namoh Namah
GREGOIRE CONTINUES: Sahaja Yoga is a very big thing and those of you who have seen “Time Out” [a magazine] know that we have gone on records to say that Mataji will grant self-realization. Now this is very big thing and the process of self-realization itself, what happened, how it happened, Mataji who is the master of that art will explain to you herself. What I should probably tell you is what my own experience has been.
My experience is identical to the experience of many many people. Before meeting Mataji two years ago, two years and a half, you see I was looking for something. I didn’t call it always God but… I was looking for God. I was looking for beauty, for justice, I was looking for truth and I had enough sense to realize that our society wasn’t exactly offering that. We have been many like that. I have friends like that in the United States, in this country, in other countries where we have been seeking in all possible directions.
Well, all those directions haven’t been very successful. We have gone through various things such as guru shopping, such as drug, too much attention in external things, too much involvement. When I was in the States two years ago I was in a pretty bad shape, I could not stop my thought process anymore. I mean I was thinking at terrific speed which was rather annoying, I mean I was thinking while sleeping also, which isn’t the best way to have a good night. I had gone into the American drug culture, it is called, ’cause I wanted to see what they found there, but they didn’t really find anything. They were very much more confused the more they sought.
Yet, in all the scriptures it is said that fulfillment of human life is found by finding oneself, by going inside and that inside is the source of joy, peace and happiness. Now the only snag is how to do it. Fine, when I was in America I met a boy in Berkeley and he was, well he’s actually one of… probably one of the wealthier chap in India. He’s a very sweet boy, also very bright, he was doing an MBA in economics in Berkeley and he saw that I was completely frantic.
He saw that, I mean… I was running left and right and he told me I know someone who can answer all your questions and who can give you what you are looking for and, I know that she is that and that she can give you self-realization. Now I have had heard many things of that kind, you see, I mean today there are very many gurus around.
I mean plastic gurus, rubber gurus, all kind of gurus. So, I mean I wasn’t impressed until he showed me a picture of Mataji and until he told me that she is a mother and a guru and she has come many time in the past as Radha, as Sita, as the Virgin Mary. Now this was very very big statement and I knew that you can’t grasp the truth or the untruth of such a statement by the mind – these things go beyond the mind. So maybe it was right, maybe it was wrong. But it was big enough to catch my curiosity, certainly, and my attention. So I decided to go to London, and see Mataji.
Now, when I met Mataji for the first time, I mean I was really in a bad shape, I mean, externally I was pretty normal, but I knew that I had a lot of nervous stresses although I had managed my studies and my job alright. I knew I couldn’t carry on very long time without getting quite mad, in a way.
So what happened was absolutely stupefying, because I felt absolutely at home. Mataji was, I mean, very very… just loving and simple and just like you’d like feeling being with your mother after a long long time and even my mother wouldn’t give me this feeling because my mother is pretty spaced out also. And it was something very great. And what happened is that after some time, you see I began feeling things, I mean Mataji said you are in a bad shape and it will take time for you, but things can be taken care of if you really want the real thing you will get it.
So, I began feeling something in my hands and the more I was feeling it, I realized that this kind of breeze – well it is like a breeze and you know, I mean it can be just a creeping at the tips of the fingers, then I realized that it was slowly changing my state of awareness. I mean, the activity of the mind was dropping down.
I was very much more quiet inside which was for me a big achievement. I realized also that, I mean in this silence, you see something was kind of downing and this thing was like a silent joy. I mean, I felt incredibly happy to exist which was not a very familiar feeling before, although you see I had read that all this takes place, that God is Sat-chit-ananda, which means truth, consciousness and bliss, although I knew that realization is the point where you begin enjoying these things. To read it doesn’t make you feel it and to understand it with you mind doesn’t make you experience it. So, I went through this absolutely bewildering experience that I was just, you know, getting what I had been looking for. And that was… (break in recording)
…I couldn’t take it. You see, if you look for something for very long time somewhat you take to like the habit of looking for it, you know? Then it is a very big reality and probably I was too small a stomach to digest it right away. So it took me sometime to really understand the importance of the whole thing. I would say that, well probably, I was certainly one of the slowest to grow in Sahaja Yoga, because in India where I have been working with the United Nation in Nepal for some time, I took the opportunity of visiting Mataji’s disciple in India.
Over there in India, see they have a blessing that we don’t have, is they are very simple. I mean, they haven’t over-developed in their own brain and so they are less inclined to go into one less… speculations. That makes them much more perceptive than we are and I realized that they were much higher in a way, but with the possibility of meditating, I improved myself gradually.
Now what happened about couple of days ago was rather impressive. You see I brought my mother here to see Mataji because, I mean my sister, my brother felt the vibrations, went into this state I mean things began happening to them in a very positive way. Problems they had were solved. They confronted all the surroundings of their life much better. So, I brought my mother to see Mataji, because she had health problems and I wanted her to be cured. And also I wanted her if possible to get realization.
Then what happened is that my mother wouldn’t get her realization until some specific mantra would be said and before telling you what that is, I should like to go back a little bit to the past and to tell you that we have to realize one thing is that self-realization is something absolutely fantastic. I mean it is something that it take thousand and thousand of years of people to achieve.
There is a great saint in India who know who Mataji is, his name is Gagangiri Maharaj and he said, “Why are you giving self-realization to people in a matter of seconds or minutes when it took me twenty thousand years to get it?” And, not only with Mataji self-realization can be given in a couple of minutes, but it is given at that mass level and we feel each other in collective consciousness, that means if I put my attention on someone I can know what is the condition of the chakra in this person.
Even ourselves, I think, hopeless as we are, I mean we have the power to raise the… I mean to grant realization of somebody in given circumstances. I mean this is something, which is unprecedented, it just didn’t happen before. What you read in the scriptures is that great saints, you know, had to go to the jungle, on the Himalayas and meditate, you know, and do penance and do all these kind of things. Now we are here, I mean we have jobs, we have eventually wives and childrens and still we get our realization within the world.
This is something absolutely incredible. So, this lead me to what should be, I mean, I take too much time, I’m sorry, this lead me to what should be really the main point of this introduction and… See, try just to imagine if we would have been, you know about nineteen-eighty years ago in Jerusalem and a man is coming in the city sitting on a donkey, would we recognize that man to be the Christ of God. Would we?
This is not an easy question and the answer is not obvious. You see what we have been doing usually is to crucify an incarnation and then to worship Him, that’s human smartness I suppose. This time by the grace of God things are very very different. We have been given informations to understand the crucial happening of the modern time. It has been said, that Christ said I have to leave you, because if I don’t leave you, the Holy Spirit will not come.
Now people say, ok the Holy Spirit came on the head of the apostles, but Jesus said also the Holy Spirit will come and convince the world about righteousness and sin and judgment. And obviously if we use our intelligence we can acknowledge that this has not been done yet, because if the world would be convinced about righteousness, sin and judgment the world wouldn’t be sinful as it is now.
So. That means that the Holy Spirit was to come after Jesus. Now, in India they have a word for Holy Spirit and this word is Adi Shakti. Adi, means primordial and Shakti means power. Adi Shakti means primordial power or the very power of God. The Adi Shakti is also said to be the Mother of the universe. Now, in our Christian tradition we have a Divine Family where you have a father who is God the Almighty and we have a son who is Jesus Christ.
But do you know of a family where there is a father and a son without a mother? So the third is what we call the Holy Spirit. Now, you see, since two years we know these things. Since, I mean two years we can check by vibrations. We can ask questions to the unconscious.
You see, very briefly, those of you who are familiar with Jung and Fromm, Erich Fromm and the latest theory of the psychology on the universal unconscious you know that there is something which is called the universal unconscious and this is from there that all the great intuition and creative thoughts which start arts, science, philosophy, religions – the greatest monuments of mankind – come from the universal unconscious. Ok?
Now. This universal unconscious is within us, but we cannot reach it. We can reach it once we have gone through the experience of self-realization and we can by vibrations ask questions. So we have asked questions. We have asked, “is Mataji that?” And the answer has always been “yes.”
So, I knew I was going to talk at this meeting and I didn’t know really what to say, because I am a coward. I was coward and actually we all were. You see? We didn’t dare telling you what things are, because it’s too big. We are all, I mean, rather small… and to be the conveyor of a big truth you have to feel that bigness also. But what happened when my mother got her realization is, you see she had to go, I mean, she’s a very well educated lady and, you know this kind of European background.
And for her it wasn’t obvious to prostenate [prostrate] herself at the feet of Mataji. Yet, she did it. And when she did it she got her realization only when I said to Mataji a specific mantra, you see? So experimentally, we can say that we have had plenty of informations to tell you. What I’m intending to tell you now and…
In the name… of all the prophets and of all the saints, in the name of Lord Rama, in the name of Lord Krishna, in the name of Lord Jesus, in the name of Allah, the merciful, the compassionate, all the Sahaja Yogi of the five continents bare witness to the truth, to the fact… that Mataji Nirmala Devi is the incarnation of the Holy Spirit. You can’t, maybe, believe it, but we don’t ask your belief, we don’t ask neither belief nor disbelief, this you just can’t digest right away. But what we can propose you is to have the honesty, to trust your own experience.
You see? If some of you are going indeed to feel this breeze, then refer to the gospels, it has been said that at the day of Pentecost a mighty wind rushed into the room where the apostles were. You see? The gnostic fathers said that the spirit is associate with pneuma or [NOOS?], which means the breath.
Adi Shankaracharya speaks of chaitanya, which means divine vibrations. So we are equipped to understand this time what is going on. The Adi Shakti is coming in the Kali Yuga, Kali Yuga is the age of darkness in which we are still – I don’t know maybe the golden age has already begun, in fact, it has. The Holy Mother has come as Mahamaya, which means the great illusion.
This means that she cannot be recognized offhand. I mean, it’s a great blessing and a great grace to be able to recognize who she is. But, you see the experience of self-realization is something which is scientific, in the sense that… Ok. What is a scientific proposition? A scientific proposition is a proposition which can be experience and communicated, these are the two criteria. Now, we can experience self-realization. We have all experienced it.
We know it is something which gives you peace and joy, and which are soothe your whole being which keeps you in a
state of happiness – daily, minutes after minutes, we know that. And we can communicate this experience also, in other words, the conditions for a proposition to be scientific, is fulfilled. And this is what spirituality and science meet at the opening of a new age, because the experience of spiritual awakening can be communicated.
This is by the grace of the Divine Mother and… I shouldn’t feel any shyness to tell it that this is the truth, because you have a right to know it. While I was meditating, before, two or three days ago trying to think what should tell, you know, I realized that when I was within myself saying, I prostenate [prostrate] myself before the One who verily is the Almighty Sacred Mother.
While I was saying this the vibration, I mean the wind was so tremendous and I would just go in state of, I mean contemplation which I never knew before and it fits with every single word of all the scriptures, not only the Christian scriptures, but the Indian scriptures. And what more do we want?
I mean we all know that this world is not the best place. I mean we all know that there is boredom and ugliness and vulgarity and injustice and oppression and that this world deserve to be changed. We know that we cannot change the world before a change in man. And we know that we cannot change man without man becoming himself. How to do it?
This is the time, if we can’t find this, that will be total destruction. And it is at that juncture that Mataji has come.
You see, we are not getting votes. We are not even seeking followers. You will be surprised how many people who come to us and we say sorry we can’t help you please leave us alone. We are hoping that by the grace of God all the genuine seekers of reality realize this goodness in themselves, realize that there is a spot in themselves which is innocence, which is sweetness, which is beauty, which is love, but that this spot is really hurt so badly, is really oppressed so badly by daily life.
There’s those genuine seekers of reality who want to live in that state and to know what they have been looking for during lives and lives of quest; those are the people that we are calling, because everybody will… not everybody but many many people will get this experience, but you must realize that it’s an experience which leaves you absolutely free. You see, you get your realization, then you walk out, nothing has changed, apparently.
I mean something has changed, but the freedom to go further and do the right thing and not do the wrong thing is left to you. You see? It’s not that just overnight you see you are completely pushed in something where you just haven’t the facility of making choice anymore. After realization we have to settle down. We have to do some things like meditating, it’s necessary.
We have to avoiding doing some things, some other things which have been described as not being the moral behavior, I mean, you cannot go on hurting people around, you cannot go on smoking or drinking too much, because it’s hurtful to your psycho-somatic instruments. So there are various things we are meant to but after all, if this prize is so big we should be able to, you know, adjust a little bit, and this we found out…
I mean myself, I found out before realization I had absolutely, I mean I was into… well, I mean you know, the whole story, girls, alcohol, drugs, I mean whatever. And, I mean I was amazed, after realization, I mean just dropped like that. And it dropped because I didn’t feel any need for anything. I mean I was just perfectly happy being myself. And that was, you see, I mean my sister was very much impressed, because she thought I was useless at, you know, running around and she just found myself completely changed.
So. This is an experience that many people have gone through. This experience can be yours and maybe we can all humbly ask in our heart. You see, I mean, “God we are searching thee, please forgive us our weaknesses. Let us know you for you are the source of our bliss.” I mean, let us try to feel that in our heart, because, I know in the west we feel we are quite smart, we have big brains, but what have we achieved, what have we achieved?
Look at the world around. I mean, walk around. You see I have been in Nepal for two years and here every single child on the street is smiling. People are smiling and laughing all the times. They are just simply happy. I mean, walk out of this place and look in the street how many people are smiling. I mean, we aren’t very happy. Our society hasn’t brought the greatest happiness or the greatest number, that’s for sure. So, if we want to be able to change something about it we should begin by changing ourselves. I think… Ok, may God all bless you. That’s the only thing that I have to tell you and that’s the only thing which is going to happen this evening.
[END OF GREGOIRE’S INTRODUCTORY TALK]
Shri Mataji’s talk:
Gregoire has said so many things that I really don’t know what to say after that. Really dumbfounded. I know it’s a fact and you have to face it, though I’m bashful about it.
You were all seeking, and I think from the time I remember I haven’t met anyone who was not seeking. They may be seeking in money, in power. But so many of them were really seeking something beyond. In the West, I always felt all the great sages of the old and the ancient times who were seeking God, are born. I could see, the way you have abhorred materialism; the way you have achieved a kind of a understanding about life… is new thing.
At the time of Christ it was not possible to see such people except for some lepers and some sickly people. There was nobody else who was willing to look at Him. Times have changed no doubt. But, in this seeking, many people have committed lots of mistakes. Mistakes can be forgiven always. They should be rectified.
I’ve been born with this. I knew I had to do this and I knew I had to be in London one day. All the people who are of a very high, evolved status, I can say, who do not live in the humdrum of life, who do not roam about as gurus and earn money, who do not claim to be pundits and the temples’ and the priest people, those who live away from all of you, hiding themselves in the jungles, they knew it was to happen. They knew about it. But when the seeking started in the West, like a demand the supply came in. We have so many Sahaja Yogis here sitting down. I would say they are real seekers because they [DENIED? not clear – “denied” sounds like “renite”], defied.
There few things, you can make it out very easily when we have, before us, the life of Christ, by which you can make out who is the true person and who is not. It’s not difficult. For example, a person who takes money from you, cannot be, cannot be a person who belongs to God. Person who belongs to God doesn’t think much of money or anything. If he’s rich, he lives like a rich person. If he’s poor, he lives like a poor person; but at heart he’s a king. Christ was a son of a carpenter. I see His pictures and I see His Mother’s pictures adorned with jewelry. She had only two robes to change. Perhaps it was never realized that money cannot purchase God. In the name of God and religion things have gone so far, so far that I do not blame human beings for taking to science, instead of God.
The misinterpretation has been so much, one can understand. But when there are so many false things in the world – copies – then one must know that there must be something… absolute. Has to be. London is regarded by all those I have been describing about, the people who are great sages, all over the world, as the heart. It saddens Me to see sometimes how people of England have not realized the value of this great country. In this country, long time, much before, much before even Christ came in, people have worked with Kundalini. Your Stonehenge is nothing but the Kundalini. Vibrations have worked in this country for ages now.
Only I am here to introduce you to them. There is some gentleman I saw copying this Kundalini that we have already made for you, all the drawings and everything, for you to see and to understand [WHERE ARE…del] what are the chakras and what are the deities ruling them. You should not accept Me even when Gregoire has told you all about these things. Could be wrong. No blind faith is going to lead you to reality, not at all.
By saying “Just believe me”, is a wrong style. You should not. But you should not also deny Me. Keep it open. For you are seeking and if I have to just enlighten you because you should enlighten other people, one should not feel hurt about it. Somebody has to do it. You may be in this place or I may be in your place. Makes no difference. If there’s a candle, which is enlightened, it can enlighten other lights if they are ready.
Perhaps, maybe, that I may be knowing all the tricks of the trade. I may be having all the knowledge about it. I may be worth[or WORK?] it, to know all about that. Let us not be very serious about it, just because Gregoire has struck such a serious note. It’s just a play. It’s just a play. It’s not that serious as we think it to be. It has to be a play because it is so important.
All those things that are important are easiest for us – example: our breathing. Supposing for learning how to breathe, if you have to go to Caxton Hall in the rain, walk all the way, listen to a big lecture and then learn about it, you’d be finished. In the same way if we have to get our realization by standing on our heads or by renouncing the whole world or, I don’t know, dancing on the Oxford Street and all sorts of things, then God save the people who are seeking.
It has to be extremely simple – has to work out that way – because if evolution is complete, we would not have been in confusion. It is not complete, that’s why we are conused. ‘Til the animal stage, there is no question of thinking about it. Only when you become human beings you start thinking about it. Only at the human stage you are given freedom to think about it. Animals are in collective consciousness all the time – in the sense they are not conscious of it, but they are driven by it.
[pause in recording, Shri Mataji seems to be referring to a book]
…that the whole nature works in such a manner as if there are some organizer which are arranging their coordination, their harmony, their working. Not only that but the death of one thing helps to give life to another. For example, in the nature the leaves have to fall down to the ground to give nitrogen to the ground. Again, to be again renovated, say… you can say, regenerated into the body of the tree to come again into its new foliage and to its bloom.
All kinds of… we can say, real experiments he [the author] has given; but if you now go and read it you will know he’s just talking about the collective be-ing, the mass be-ing that is there, the one in which we all exist ourselves, and that He is looking after us in every way; and how everything in nature is interdependent; how animals understand; and how every amoeba and paramecium – is a unicellular cell – also understands: what its group is doing and what are the signals and how he receives it; how bees understand where is the honey and how they go and come back the same way – there are no road-maps, nothing.
Miles together how do they travel? It’s very interesting. And there are many books like this, which you can find from any biologist [OR-WHAT-IS-HEDOIN’-‘ N’WHY not clear – spoken v. fast] he’s a great biologist, I must say. Biologists, because they deal with life, I think they are very much nearer the point.
Another one is Jung who had experimented with collective consciousness. He says that there are dreams we get which are universally the same as far as the symbol is concerned. The symbols that they see whether here or in India or in Australia or in Timbuktu. They’re all… when decoded… express the same thing. For example if it has to express a fear, harmony, anything, it expresses that.
It’s surprising. After all there is somebody who is throwing these symbols in the atmosphere where we live. From our unconscious, he says, these are coming. But all these things are like the finding of people who are probing in the dark: they find something here and find something there, you find something there and you put it together. All these things can be put together. All these things can be bridged together, integrated together and can be shown, very easily, if you get your self-realization.
Self within you, is in your heart. Your Self. You know there is somebody who knows everything about you. There is someone. If you murder someone, That one knows. If you do anything, That one knows. And That one that knows is the Self. Now when we talk of God, people have already negated God: they say, “Where is God? Let us see.” Without self-realization, you cannot know Him. You cannot know Him through all these so-called conditionings that we have. Like we go to churches and pray, go to the temples and pray, sing songs and mantras and this and that. No.
You cannot know Him through these things because still you are outside. You have to come inside. During all these steps, everything, you have to come inside, inside the door, sit down and receive it. Self-knowledge is not the knowledge that: you are a sinner, you are good for nothing or you are a king or you are such and such. This is all outside. Self-knowledge is that, that you are an instrument. You are an instrument and you have to act for the dynamic forces of that Dynamic One, the vast personality whom we call as God Almighty. You are that.
Only thing is the instrument is not yet connected with That. I said ‘til the animal stage we are one with it. We have no problems. Only when we become human beings then [ABOVE SHOWN?] there you see on the left the black, right the black and [THE…del] another side is the yellow-colored in the head.
These are the two balloons, which grow with our activity, ego and superego. And they cover our head completely, by which this fontanel bone, which is a soft bone in the childhood –you have seen children they’re so much one with the collective consciousness – when it becomes hardened up there it is because these two meet and overlap. Man is made like that. He has been given the freedom. He has been given the ‘I’ness. He develops this special thing. He has been given freedom because this is the last stage of evolution now. Man has to jump by himself-understanding it.
You do not know how you became human beings from amoeba to this stage. But human beings will have to know how they become one with themselves and how they enter into the kingdom of God. That is their right and to have this right they must have freedom and they must develop their wisdom and discretion, their temperance, – how to use that freedom. For this purpose, in our being there is already placed a residual power, which is called as Kundalini, at the base of the spine. It is there.
Now. Many Sahaja Yogis, I would say thousands, in America and in India, and also other places, have seen it with their own eyes the pulsation of the Kundalini at that spine. If there is obstruction in the stomach by some disease or may be some other trouble then this pulsation is much heavier and you can see the Kundalini pulsating. Very clearly. The pulsation travels upward when the Kundalini rises. You can see that also. You can also feel the different chakras – is the centers – which are placed inside the spinal cord, not outside as some books have written.
All kinds of funny things they have written about Kundalini. Anybody who felt like writing has written. From the books they have taken something, they have written such big, big books. It’s shocking because this is a very subtle thing and a holy thing. Most auspicious. The way they have handled Kundalini is something one cannot imagine.
The most highest and the holiest of all has been insulted, has been ruined by this kind of half-baked people just for earning some money. How long do you carry your money with you? Are you going to carry it with you all your lives? Also cheating people or for overpowering some people – all kinds of things have been done in this world in the name of God, in the name of Kundalini. It really sometimes amazes me, how people are really seriously giving sermons and talking big in the name of God, wearing diamonds all over… bought by somebody else’s money.
And how can we the thinkers, the ones who have got brains, accept such a situation where we find, where we find that those who are so much interested in all these things and trying to impress others by getting it from others. We have been really misled. It’s a sad thing. It’s the saddest story. It wrenches my heart, but I feel the innocent, the simple, the seekers… the seekers have been the greatest victims. They have been – for money, for vindictiveness, and also there are satanic forces that have come up. They are trying also to exploit. They have come in their complete force, in their full regiment they are up here. It’s hard to understand for you people how you are gradually dragged into their clutches and into their jaws and they’re about to just clutch you. But you must know that God did not create this creation to be destroyed. He did not create you to be destroyed. There’s nothing more powerful than God Himself and it is going to work out and you all are going to get it. I have no doubts about it. I have no doubts. Maybe some of you may not get it today. Possibly. But you can’t say that you will not get it tomorrow. You will and you all should have it because you are seekers.